Across the Spider-Verse director reflects on his anime roots

Joaquim Dos Santos is one of the most influential and successful animators of his generation. Even if you don’t immediately know his name, you undoubtedly know a series or movie he worked on.

The 46-year-old Portuguese-American director’s filmography is littered with contributions to some of the most critically acclaimed animated series of the 21st century, from episodes of Justice League Unlimited And Avatar: The last airbender to executive producing series such as The Legend of Korra And Voltron: Legendary Defender. Not to mention what is by far his greatest professional achievement to date: co-directing Spider-Man: About the Spider-Versethe 2023 sequel to the Oscar-winning animated superhero film.

Dos Santos was one of several high-profile guests invited to the 2024 Crunchyroll Anime Awards to present this year’s nominees and honor the achievements of the anime industry at large. Polygon had the opportunity to speak with Dos Santos ahead of the awards to discuss his personal history with anime, what fascinates him most about the medium, and the artists and animators who inspire his own approach to storytelling.

This interview has been edited for content and clarity.

Polygon: What was your first favorite anime, and what is your favorite anime now?

Joaquim Dos Santos: They are both the same. I don’t know if it was necessarily my first anime, because I think anime had been infiltrating the US for many, many years without us really realizing it at the time. But the first thing that struck me that I knew was not made in the US, and existed outside of Western storytelling conventions was Macros. In the United States it was called Robotech.

I remember that having a huge impact on me. You have to remember that it was the mid-80s and 90s, and all the cartoons of that time – and I love them all, by the way – Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, GI JoeAnd Thunder cats, they were all great, but they felt like they were essentially products for children. Macros was the first to include everything I loved as a kid, namely giant robots and aliens, but it also had love stories woven into it. People died and stayed dead, and the characters had to deal with that death and what it means to be at war with someone else. What does it mean when your enemy becomes your friend? Those intricacies really made a huge impression on me, so that it is still my favorite to this day.

You are a visual storyteller who draws inspiration from a variety of different sources. What is the unique quality of anime that personally inspires you as a creator?

Honestly, it’s the appreciation of the quiet moments. It’s the little observations that allow you to paint a picture or feel like you’re using your other senses when you’re really just looking at a screen and seeing moving images. It’s the subtleties of, you know, in an action scene, doing an extreme close-up with foot positioning and the micro movements that happen, as opposed to the big stuff. The big things are important, but all of that really helps paint the picture for the audience.

Those are the things that I really remember coming into my little palette of influences, and I didn’t even realize it was even happening until I probably got into the industry and the generation that brought me in asked me, Why do you cut corners on very small things? and I was like, Oh, isn’t that what we do? Aren’t we trying to sell the feeling of the scene? And then I knew it had gotten in there.

Was there an anime you looked at for inspiration while you were working on it? Spider-Man: About the Spider-Verse?

I mean, I think it’s undeniable that anime in general had a huge impact on the creation of the visuals for that film and (Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse). I think we’re in a generation now where it seems like a whole generation grew up with it as part of their artistic influence. I don’t know if it was something we could point out.

When I talk about more recent things that have kind of infiltrated, I think an animator like Yutaka Nakamura (known for his work on Cowboy Bebop, Full metal alchemist, And My Hero Academia) which essentially revolutionized what a flash frame can be and how impactful that can be. I know his work was referenced many times by members of the team. I mean, look, we’re all fans, right? When I came into the industry, (animation) was still a paper medium. We were all still making storyboards on paper, and so we were passing around these huge folders of artist references, and now we’re basically passing down hard drives of the best performances of all the animators out there. So yes, Yutaka Nakamura’s work was a huge inspiration for us.

FLCL still holds the line to this day. That’s still an anime that everyone watches, really studies and breaks down. I don’t know if it’s a thing, but anime as a whole had a huge influence on us.

In addition to directing, you have had a long and illustrious career Spider-Man: About the Spider-Verseincluding work on shows such as Avatar: The last airbender, The Legend of KorraAnd Voltron: Legendary Defender. All three are heavily influenced by anime, with some fans even going so far as to claim that they qualify as anime themselves. What is your opinion on that debate?

It is dangerous to take a side in that debate. But I think the fact that we’re even in that discussion, or that any of those shows are in that discussion, is a huge honor and it means a lot. I’m excited about the fact that animation, just in general, is becoming a globalized, beautiful thing.

I mean, if you look at the number of international presenters that will be here at the awards, it’s huge. There are artists that I work with and have worked on Naruto And A piece who come from the Midwest, in the US. So I think it’s more of a testament to the power of anime and the fact that it has become a global language. So yes, the fact that we are even considered and that people are working for us is a huge honor. But I can’t pick a side, man. (laughs)

You mentioned Yutaka Nakamura earlier. Do you have any other favorite Japanese animators?

Oh man. I mean, that’s a loaded question. When I think about when I was growing up, I think about things like the Itano Circus and Macros without even realizing that this was an influence at the time, just getting into my brain. Mamoru Oshii (known for his 1995 directorial work Ghost in the shell) is big. Sushio (known for his work op FLCL, Gurren Lagann, And Kill La killed) is another one. Not necessarily an animator, but you can’t deny that (Dragon Ball creator) Akira Toriyama had a huge influence on the medium in general. The list just goes on from there.

Yutaka (Nakamura) is an easy one because those cuts are more or less in their own little pocket universe. But I think about how many animators may not have that distinct visual outlook, but their work otherwise works so beautifully to create the whole. That’s almost like a bigger superpower to me. You bring in the heavy hitters to do the crazy stuff, but the ones who are on the bigger team and create the whole piece of work together, those animators are heroes too.

What’s a recent anime you’ve watched and enjoyed, or are looking forward to?

I’m really looking forward to watching Pluto. I haven’t seen it yet, but I’m really looking forward to it. But recently, I tell you, we were five years further (Spider-Man: About the Spider-Verse), and I didn’t have time to do anything. And post-About the Spider-Versewe just had a crazy press tour, and so I have some things lined up that I haven’t really gotten around to yet.

I’m trying to think of the last thing I really sat down and took in. There was a vampire anime on Netflix, Sirius the Jaeger. I got through half of that and that was amazing. I will say this, but I watched Dragon Ball Z with my son. He’s 8 years old, so he’s like one DBZ devotee. So I watch all the classics with him and that is really special. The fact that he is now working on this himself and starting to figure it out without me forcing it on him. I want to make sure I don’t influence him too much. He found his own favorite anime and that was very special.

Spider-Man: Beyond the Spider-Verse was delayed from its original release date last year. Can you provide an explanation as to why production has been delayed, or an update on where production is now?

I can tell you it works. I notice we’re kind of taking an example from the video game industry. We give it time to cook and make sure it can be the best it can be. I think that’s the most realistic answer. When you look at these movies, they’re huge, huge undertakings, and you have to connect all the dots to make sure it’s the best it can be.